Jordan "rookie card" discussion

[Peter_Spaeth]

A discussion that's been had many times but I haven't seen it in a while. I have never thought the 1986 Fleer Jordan was anything more than a 3rd year card, because the 1984 Star #101 -- even though not distributed in packs -- was an officially licensed card. The Beckett definition of a rookie card, and the (to me) silly XRC designation for an earlier licensed card that didn't meet the definition, never made any sense to me. Indeed, I think the hobby has largely abandoned the whole XRC thing long ago -- think for example of the 1984 Fleer Update Clemens which I think everyone would now call his rookie card -- but it has never embraced the 101 as Jordan's true rookie. Part of it, I think, is that most people don't have one because the production was so limited. And yes, there is some confusion most of it inaccurate about reissues and so forth (see www.basketballgold.com to clear that all up), but that really has nothing to do with the question.

[Peter_Spaeth]

PSA refusing to grade the 101 -- which makes no sense according to probably the two most knowledgeable people there are about Star BKB -- is part of the issue as well I suppose.

[JordanJudgeMantle]

Great opening post for the basketball forum and a topic that is very timely given the current Jordan market and the recent release of the Last Dance documentary.

The Fleer is an incredibly important issue and one hell of a pretty card but the Star should be considered the true RC. It has such a limited print run compared to the 1986-87 Fleer and a host of condition issues. Great point regarding the Fleer Updates. Even the Ripken Topps Traded comes to mind. These were not pack distributed cards but have widely become accepted as "the" card to own for their respective players. Method of distribution clearly isn't the defining factor in this case.

PSA refusing to grade them coupled with the incredible amount if misinformation swirling around this card and these sets in general have sadly held it back. I feel if the Star were to bust out it would have already. Time will tell. It is one of my personal favorites and one of the first cards I purchased when returning to the hobby.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't mean to knock the 86 Fleer and agree it's a great card, but it's a third year card that relative to the 101 was mass-produced. The true rookie card of Jordan -- the GOAT -- produced in very limited quantities should be worth many times more.

[MattyC]

Could not agree more with both you guys on this topic. On other boards this always degenerates into some kind of pitched battle between two sportscards; I feel both are so awesome, yet the Star being mistreated by PSA (let's not even go into this terrible decision, let alone the company) is a real hobby tragedy. That said I do feel like the card has momentum and collectors are appreciating it more and more with each passing year.

[samosa4u]

I agree with everyone's points. The 86' Fleer, while it's a nice card, is definitely not a "rookie." The reason why this card has been popular for so long, and why it sells for insane amounts of money, is because of PSA. PSA encapsulates this card AND they have been promoting it as his "true rookie" for years. How many times has Joe Orlando talked about this card? A million times! It's been mentioned in his book, online articles, PSA website, SMR magazine, etc. This card has been shoved down our throats for years!

The Star #101 has been blacklisted by PSA and this has definitely held it back. Add to that all the stories that have been circulating about this card for years - complete bullsh*t. If Star Co. printed the #101 at a later date using the same printing plates, and if we can't tell the difference between these cards from the originals, then why is the Beckett pop so low? People just believe everything they hear instead of doing their own research!

[Peter_Spaeth]

They weren't reprinted by Star. The issue as I understand it -- a minor one that can be easily differentiated -- is that a few pre-production copies got released and PSA slabbed one of them. PSA's response upon learning of its mistake was to shut down all Star basketball. The irony is that the 86 Fleers in slabs are just riddled with hack jobs.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This one easily could have been an 8.5 as I've seen this centering get an 8 subgrade many times.

[samosa4u]

The issue as I understand it -- a minor one that can be easily differentiated -- is that a few pre-production copies got released and PSA slabbed one of them. PSA's response upon learning of its mistake was to shut down all Star basketball.

Some sheets, which were printer's scrap, got taken out of the print shop by an employee and it was these cards that PSA ended up grading. Steve Taft, an original Star dealer, pointed this out to PSA and it freaked them out. Instead of trying to learn about Star BB cards, the company just decided to stop grading them altogether. Things were also made worse when Steve Taft put some of these PSA-graded Type II's in his display case at a card show. David Hall (PSA founder) walked past his table and saw them.

[Arazi4442]

I was kind of thinking the same thing, comparing the star/fleer Jordan RC discussion with the 51 Bowman vs. 52 Topps Mantle. But the 1980s traded sets are probably a better comparison - 82 Ripken, 83 Strawberry, 84 Clemens, Puckett, Gooden, etc.

Best to be careful still with any high value card. I've been watching for a 101 Jordan lately, there's one on eBay now in a BGS holder with a 9.5 centering sub grade that looks like a 6 or so. Maybe broken out of the slab and swapped?

[Arazi4442]

Here's a pic

[pokerplyr80]

Just picked one up tonight. Been meaning to for a while. I agree it is one of the more under appreciated cards in the hobby.

[Arazi4442]

Great pickup!

Got one myself a few weeks ago.

[aro13]

For multiple reasons I think the Star company rookie has been overlooked compared to the Fleer.

1) The beckett designation of the card as an XRC.
2) The perceived issue with reprints that emerged and made collectors hesitant.
3) The print run, making it far more difficult to obtain.
4) Unfortunately the PSA factor of not grading them.
5) Like some other high grade Star Rookie and first year cards (Jordan #101, Jordan #195 Hakeem RC) they are very very difficult to find centered as pointed out above. When I bought mine I was looking for a 7.5 centering with the rest in 9's. (The card with 7.5 centering above is a sweet example)

I have noticed in the last year and once VCP started recording sales data for Star cards they have gone up in value. If PSA does ever choose to grade them, I can imagine the prices will really skyrocket especially for cards that find their way into 9 and 10 holders.